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Martech Stacked Episode 15: How to build better customer relationships through messenger-based experiences - David Abrams

3rd September 2020

I’m joined today by an operations geek, team-builder, foodie, traveler, and philanthropist all rolled into one - someone who’s created, built and sold multiple software and is now focused on building the most powerful webinar platform designed for growth. Welcome to Martech Stacked, the Co-Founder and CEO of Demio - David Abrams.

Listen to Martech Stacked on Apple, Google Podcasts or Spotify.

Here are the 3 top tools in David’s current martech stack:

#1: Intercom Build better customer relationships through conversational, messenger-based experiences with Intercom.

#2: Webflow Build responsive websites in your browser, then launch with our world-class hosting or export your code.

#3: Active Campaign Integrated email marketing, marketing automation, and small business CRM. Save time while growing your business with sales automation.

Full transcript:

David Bain: I'm joined today by an operations geek, team builder, foodie, traveler, and philanthropist all rolled into one. Someone who's created, built and sold multiple software, and is now focused on building the most powerful webinar platform designed for growth. Welcome to Martech Stacked, the co founder and CEO of Demio, David Abrams.

David Abrams: Hey, how's it going? Thanks for having me. What an intro.

David Bain: Thank you very much. Just that keeps on going from there.

David Abrams: That's awesome.

David Bain: You can of course find David with the wonderful first name over at So David explain what Demio does and how you use marketing technology to make it better.

David Abrams: Yeah, absolutely. So Demio is a live communication platform built to help SaaS companies fuel their growth through interactive onboarding education and marketing webinars. We try to fit seamlessly into any marketing stacks. So appropriate for today's podcast. Companies can use Demio to engage their target market and customers in real time while also measuring results across their campaigns. We got lucky by having access to an evolving and growing WebRTC technology, the video streaming technology.

David Abrams: We're actually probably using it right now and the past behind it. So we've been really able to focus a lot of our attention on the use cases of webinars, how marketers are using them and the user experience for that to run well. I think marketing technology for our business itself has shaped our ability to learn about our customers, attract the right customers. We're marketing to marketers with a marketing B2B.

David Abrams: So it's all like one big inception of marketing tools that support us to learn about our customers. But we also want to support those marketing stacks with our software too. So a lot going on there.

David Bain: Lovely. And I tell you what? I really loved your one minute elevator pitch there in terms of describing Demio. I think a lot of founders or marketers struggle with just describing succinctly exactly what they do, what their business does. I think that you did it really well. You shared what you do, but you also share it of who it's relevant for, who your target market is for. So a really good job there.

David Abrams: It took us many innovations of that. So I'll say it takes time.

David Bain: Good stuff. And also obviously I love webinars. I love producing virtual summits and podcasting as well. I'm sure we'll talk a lot about the production of webinars and I guess how your technology is evolving as well. But in terms of just marketing technology in general and your use of it within Demio, what kind of sector of marketing technology would you say is something that's running particularly fluidly and effortlessly for you at the moment?

David Abrams: With our business at the moment, definitely I think the customer support service side. I look at Intercom and is just a vital piece of our business in so many ways. And to us it becomes a marketing software. I think so many of our customers come from word of mouth and referral. A lot of what we'll hear when we see those is our customer support team was fantastic. It was a wonderful experience working with our business because of that. So in a lot of ways, customer service becomes a marketing channel for us.

David Abrams: And utilizing Intercom to do things like understanding our customers and just being able to connect with them really quickly. Like under two minute response times with our team has been that kind of enabler. Intercom I think just fits into so many areas of our business, but that's one area that I think we're really doing well. I think there's plenty of areas in our marketing technology stack that we can improve on. But that's one area that I'm like, I love it. I think we're doing great there.

David Bain: Excellent. Yeah. You mentioned Intercom there. We'll delve into whether or not it's Intercom is one of your top three tools that you're actually using there. But I love web chat. When considering new marketing technology, I tend to jump on chat. If the company is responsive, if they can immediately answer my question without me going through lots of hoops or having to wait for the response, then I'm much more likely to select that provider.

David Bain: So it's great that you choose that type of software as being very important to your business. So let's delve straight into those top three tools. So start off with number three. Which are your top three tools and your current martech stack, and why?

David Abrams: Starting from number three and going up, I would have to say ActiveCampaign, number three. That is the CRM that we utilize. We've been using it for five years. It's just an incredible software. We have a great partnership with them too, because they're just such a great company. Represented a lot of similar values to us. Very easy to use, great automation builder, a really nice analytical system that's kind of built in there as well. So that's number three, ActiveCampaign.

David Abrams: Obviously, Demio itself connects to ActiveCampaign in a nice way. So when we run our webinars, we can send out all of that information as well. So that's been very helpful. They also have a great integration through Zapier, which very helpful. The next one-

David Bain: So just to delve into specifically ActiveCampaign just for a second there. It's funny. I had a conversation with Neal Schaffer recently for episode 12, Martech Stacked. His number one tool was ActiveCampaign. So you're saying that you used ActiveCampaign for quite a few years. Four or five years I think you said there. Why did you actually choose it to begin with instead of another competitor?

David Abrams: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of CRMs out there realistically. I was a big Infusionsoft guy. Now Keap for a long time. Before Demio I was doing a lot of marketing campaigns, marketing funnel technology. I would utilize all of the different CRMs. I would see them all. ActiveCampaign really fit well with pricing and scale of a business. The user interface was great. Again, I think they have some really smart ideas of how they've done integrations with their campaign builders.

David Abrams: And again, I think just the value that they built into their company are resonating inside of their product. Easy to use. The fact that you can basically set up also your analytics through your website and then do a campaign based on what people are doing on your website is a huge win. I mean, they definitely understand the total life cycle of what's happening. But realistically, it's just been one that early on is an easy adopter to come in when you're just starting.

David Abrams: When we first launched Demio, it was the first platform we went with. CRMs are one of those hard things to like churn away from. Like once things are built out in there, you're really like, "Well, we can kind of build with this." But it's been absolutely phenomenal for us and no complaints with it.

David Bain: It's funny that you describe it as a CRM rather than the email marketing software. So I presume that you don't use any additional CRM then in addition to?

David Abrams: No.

David Bain: Yeah. Okay.

David Abrams: Yeah. We use Intercom, I guess, would be kind of the ancillary piece to that, but we do utilize it as email marketing. But also our customer relationship manager system which quite honestly, if we get to the point where we have like more pipeline, we are self-serve. So we don't have like a lot of sales reps and stuff like that. We would probably have to add some additional piece into that pipeline.

David Bain: Just to remain on ActiveCampaign for another second, I've talked to another couple of marketers that say they've tried ActiveCampaign, but they've gone back to something like ConvertKit. Possibly because it offered too much and wasn't quite suitable or cover too much for their needs. Would you say ActiveCampaigns the best software for any business out there in terms of email marketing and CRM combined or is it just a certain type of business that it's best for?

David Abrams: I don't know if I have the perfect answer because there are so many use cases and needs from a business. I guess it really depends on what you need. I mean, I think it's very competitive and comparable to a ConvertKit. However, I think for what we need it for in the use cases that we have ActiveCampaign fits very well. Some of the sales things that we're sending back in from Zapier, some of the custom fields that we're using from our webinars.

David Abrams: So from like where it fits in our stack, it's perfect for us, but it does have a lot to it. It has a lot that you can unlock. So it does allow you to also move. Like grow your business with it and not feel the need that you're going to run into a lack of features or a lack of like need of that product.

David Bain: Okay. So you don't feel that you're likely to outgrow at any time soon?

David Abrams: Correct. That's probably the best way I'm trying to say it. Yeah.

David Bain: Great. So that was number three. ActiveCampaign number three, what is your tool number two?

David Abrams: Number two is Webflow. I think Webflow was an amazing addition to our business. Webflow is a website builder. No code website builder. We spent so many of the early years of Demio with a web development team building out... Having a designer build stuff out. Then small changes we'd have to go through this process and back and forth and through GitHub. All that stuff. Now we've been able to really kind of bring the website web campaigns into the marketing team. So we're able to react, adapt, build new copy, make changes, design work, really play with things so fast and so quickly. It's been phenomenal as far as increasing our workflow productivity, and just overall output has been a huge win for us.

David Bain: I was aware of Webflow, but I haven't actually used it myself. Were you using WordPress before Webflow?

David Abrams: We were using WordPress. We still have WordPress for our blog. So we still use that for our blog and some of the other sites, but we were using some WordPress on the website. And then because of just speed of development, we switched to just straight HTML CSS sites. And we were just like, "Let's build very fast, beautiful sites." So we had that kind of as our base, but then all of a sudden you're into like spaghetti sites. Then all of a sudden you've got a lot to deal with. So, yeah. It kind of changed over time.

David Bain: So was it just a question of speed or was it... Were you concerned about perhaps even security within having your main site on WordPress?

David Abrams: I don't think we had general security concerns because even with WordPress, we could do a lot of security stuff. Constant updates, have that web development team consistently updating it. And we still have it on our blog. So it's not like we have a fear of WordPress. I just think that Webflow, the way that they built it they've really considered marketing teams. They've considered the nontechnical people in your business. It really helps you to yes, speed up that process, but also take that creativity into other departments.

David Abrams: So you don't have to rely on engineering teams. It just lets you experiment faster. All the things that you can do with the different technology pieces allow you to do some really cool stuff with your website without having to hire big web design agencies. Or have really senior website designers and you have to worry about speed or SEO or how to do redirects. All that stuff is so easily built into Webflow

David Bain: At ContentCal we use Contentful as the main CMS. Are you aware of any major advantages or disadvantages to Webflow over another CMS like Contentful?

David Abrams: I don't think I do. I think we were recommended to Webflow by a variety of marketers, SaaS marketers in the space who just really loved their brand and how easy the editor is to use. So we didn't do much competitive research when we switched to it, but I think just having a no code CMS is just the way to go for future teams.

David Bain: Sounds good. Yeah. Obviously you mentioned that you still have WordPress. You use it for your blog. I see that you're hosting that in your subdomain I've always got a few concerns from an SEO perspective with having a blog on a subdomain instead of actually a folder within your main domain. Have you had any kind of ranking issues because of hosting your blog on a subdomain?

David Abrams: Yeah. Certainly we've discussed internally what would it look like. I think originally it was, and then we went into Webflow it did change some of the structure of the site. So we went to a subdomain, learn.demio and did a lot of 301 redirects for that. I think ultimately we would love to go back to possibly regain some of that SEO. I'm not sure what the actual damage was if there was any, because our blog was so early when it was swapped. It wasn't like we were losing huge rankings or anything like that.

David Abrams: But I think it's definitely like one of those discussion pieces where it's like if we were to audit some quick wins right now from the SEO perspective, maybe we would move over to a sub-folder and just redirect everything back. Because I think the URL has such a high domain rank that we could possibly just gain the benefit of that versus any loss of anything.

David Bain: Yeah. I mean, you're obviously linking cross-site between your subdomain and your domain. So it's a strong signal to search engines that it is really part of the same website. I haven't dived into it. I'm not sure if you're hosting on the same server for your subdomain as you are for your website. Exactly. So that's another strong signal for you as well. So it's possibly not a major issue. So that's tool number two. What is number one?

David Abrams: Well, I think I already mentioned it. I kind of gave it away already, right? Intercom, I think for us as number one. I just love this brand so much. I love the company. I love everything that they're doing. We have their books, we read their blog every day. We're just huge fans of Intercom. But I think for our business, when we look at our martech stack, so much is connected to Intercom.

David Abrams: We're tracking the utilization of our products in Intercom, survey data. We have our onboarding messages, product tours, our customer success teams in there. Product marketing comes out of there. All of our churn reports, data analysis, pipeline. So much of that stuff is built into Intercom.

David Bain: Okay. I also believe that Intercom has email kind of built into it as well. You can send emails through Intercom as well, can't you?

David Abrams: Yeah, absolutely. So you can send emails to certain segments. So again, we have a survey when you sign up for Demio. We save all of those attributes into Intercom and then we can send out like custom onboarding emails. We can send off one off emails to you. Today we just released a brand new feature. To certain segments, we had like five segments. But like if you requested this feature before in the past, we've had a flag so that we could send you a direct personal email.

David Abrams: We can mass email all our active customers. We can launch an in-app message at the same time. Control that kind of customization, and then anyone that may have churned because of that product feature requests in the past, we can send them a personal reach-out email. So it becomes very helpful for, again, that marketing part of that process. That product marketing, but a variety of other use cases as well.

David Bain: So in terms of email, you're obviously using ActiveCampaign as well. When does the use of Intercom stop and the use of ActiveCampaign start? What's a use case scenario where ActiveCampaign's better and Intercom's better?

David Abrams: Yeah. I think it's a really good question. I think for our active users and anything related to onboarding product, education, training, all that is really good inside of Intercom. Because we have the ability to talk to our active customers. We have all that data saved. One of the problems that we currently have with Intercom is the way that they handle legacy building. We're still in their legacy plan. But with the legacy building, we get like an add up of the total number of contacts in Intercom becomes our billing number.

David Abrams: So we get so many leads and so many trial customers in that if we just let that grow over time, that number would be like 50,000 to a hundred thousand contacts every couple of months. That bill would just be $25,000. So to keep it in a range that we like, we do basically trimming every week where we can just archive the contacts down to a level that we want. Around like 20,000. I think is kind of our estimated goal. By doing that, we keep our bill lower and it doesn't delete those contacts. It just archives them. So whenever they come back their data and everything like that will come back to you.

David Abrams: But what that ultimately will do for us is it'll like archive older trials or churned customers because of the filters that we're using to archive them. So again, the system becomes really good for us to message our current active users who are like in the past 60 days, a big part of the Demio cycle. Outside of that, we move them all into ActiveCampaign. So an ActiveCampaign, we have a list of all of our leads who have signed up on the blog for a lead magnet, stuff like that.

David Abrams: It's also trials over the past three years. It's also all of the customers churned into segments, active into a segment. So if we wanted to do like a full market promotion, we'll use ActiveCampaign for that. If we want to do like a newsletter blast to our leads, we use ActiveCampaign for that. Today with the product like a marketing announcement, that went to the entire list. Everybody that's seen Demio over the past three years because that becomes like a marketing play to maybe reactivate or bringing new trials, check out new features, stuff like that.

David Bain: Brilliant. Okay. Well, you say it was a great question. I think it was a brilliant answer. It gives the listener a great feel for why trimming is so important. Obviously trimming is important from the perspective of ensuring that you're delivering messages to the person that actually wants to receive messages from you. To ensure that your delivery rates as high as possible, but also from a cost perspective as well. Just being as efficient as possible with moving people across within your business and delivering the right messaging in the right time.

David Bain: I'd like to get a little understanding of your content marketing strategy as well. Obviously your product is famed for video. So where does video webinars fit into your own content marketing strategy and what kind of funnel operates there?

David Abrams: Yeah. So for a long time, we used a top of funnel webinar to bring in leads and push them into a free trial. Right now that that experiment is paused. Most of our webinars now are focused top of funnel in an educational format. So we're doing a lot of partnership webinars with other SaaS companies to just do a open-ended education. Just branding without doing a sales type of event. Just purely partnership education. That's our education team kind of actively doing that.

David Abrams: We also use webinars for Q&A and onboarding. So like just answering those questions, building relationships once people coming on the trial. We're also doing a lot of personalized video calls. So that's one thing that we've really kind of honed in on this year. So utilizing Intercom to message certain customers on different plan types and offering them live one on one sessions to answer their questions. So moving away from that group dynamic to also offering personal video communications. For a while, we were doing webinars as a content strategy doing a show similar to this. That did transform into a podcast called the SaaS Breakthrough podcast. So we've moved away from video there.

David Abrams: But last year at the end of the year, we did do a live summit called the SaaS Breakthrough Summit where we did it all on Demio. Some of the top guests on that podcast came on and we did just marketing presentation just about marketing content. All live with guests, super engaging. It was really just a great day of just pure content. I think we're going to evolve on that this year and we're going to continue to try to find ways to figure out how can we utilize webinars and video in a unique way for that top of funnel. And kind of really just building something kind of cool and unique for marketers in the B2B space.

David Bain: Great. Okay. So you talk a lot about education based content and non salesy based content. Does that mean that people just naturally gravitate towards your brand after the experience your educational content, or do you have some kind of subtle retargeting perhaps after someone consumes your educational content to drive people towards a more prominent call to action?

David Abrams: I think we definitely have a good retargeting strategy because we use a customer case studies. A lot of like non-pushy case studies that are just fun videos for retargeting. But I think what I mean by that is on those educational events, we still recommend signing up for a 14 day free trial of Demio. We still offer like a bonus to sign up, but there's no direct sale. When we were doing this top of funnel kind of sales webinar before, we were driving like cold leads to a automated webinar. The call to action was to buy a package. To sign up and buy a discounted annual plan that came with all these bonuses, right?

David Abrams: So we were utilizing it in the fashion of taking a cold lead and trying to move them to a direct sale at that moment and get an earning for the advertisement. Just kind of get an EPC there, but we've moved away from that. It's really been more about how can we just educate prospects around the benefits of webinars? And if they're interested in using Demio, well, then they can sign up for a 14 day free trial. Nothing about like direct sales and letting the product do a lot of that onboarding activation and the sales process for it.

David Bain: So when I searched for Demio on YouTube, you don't appear to be putting much effort into your YouTube channel. Obviously you can't do every single channel. That's obviously a true strategic decision there, but when I searched for Demio, you've got three reviews from independent podcasters or other people on there. Then you've got your channel after that, that's just got I think 27 videos in there at the moment. Why have you decided not to focus heavily on YouTube at all?

David Abrams: Well, I think one, the answer is just the resources, time that we have. I think it's being kind of the question of where do we attribute our time? Our marketing department is really still to this day, me and my co-founder. That's really like the major parts of our marketing team. We are in the process right now of hiring for the marketing department to kind of build that out. That may be where we go. The day one, when we were pre-launching Demio I think a lot of those videos that are up in that channel, are from the prelaunch of Demio.

David Abrams: Me and Wyatt put together a YouTube show. It was called Inside Demio where we had like a camera crew follow us around building the infrastructure of Demio. What it was like from the ground up. But our development timeline took so long that some of these episodes were just us sitting around like just talking about development waiting. It was like after a while, it kind of just didn't have much of a flow. We didn't really have a good design of what the outcome of what that show was going to be. Like who are we marketing it to. All kind of stuff.

David Abrams: We were just kind of like talking about the founder journey. I think it attracted some good, early stage founders, but that wasn't like the target of Demio. So we kind of canceled that show early on, built a product out, launched it, did everything else. We had again, the video show called Demio Discover, which then transformed into SaaS Breakthrough podcast, but we just never really went back to video. I think we had a good experience with it, but the YouTube channel has never been something that we've just actively said, "Hey, this has to be one of our channels."

David Abrams: We've always had good success with video. Which is crazy when we think about it, and we say it out loud. Like video advertisements have always done so well for us. Video marketing for product releases has done well for us. I think our video success stories have always done well. I don't know why we don't utilize it more, but it's just one of those things that kind of gets kind of pushed down and the process of experimentation.

David Bain: Sure. That's fine. You can't do everything at the same time, and it's best not to do everything at the same time. It's just good to get an understanding, I guess why that is. One thing that you certainly appear to have been focusing on is developing relationships with influencers because you've got some great product reviews on YouTube. I think I actually heard of you for the first time when Pat Flynn was talking about you. Is that a relationship that you reached out to him about? About sharing your brand and what you do?

David Abrams: We do a lot of strategic outreach. Now we try to do that more with a lot of SaaS companies utilizing the podcast to try to build those relationships. And really just find great partnerships and stuff like that. We do have influencers as well. Pat Flynn being one of them. I think most of that has been through reach out a lot of ways. Reach out partnerships on summits events, stuff like that. Trying to find collaborative ways to do education or offers and stuff like that. Pat Flynn was a unique situation where we were sponsoring an event, a Convert It event. Leadpages, drip event.

David Abrams: We were there with a lot of maybe like 10 other sponsors. Pat Flynn is an advisor on the advisory board I believe at Leadpages. And so he was at the event. I think some other people were there, but he walked up to our booth and ConvertKit was running a webinar on Demio. We had SamCart. We had ConvertKit both, I think actively that day running webinars with Demio. Pat Flynn's adviser on both of those companies as well. So when he walked over to check us out, we kind of had this open ended conversation like, "Hey, look. Literally on our computer right now, here's ConvertKit running a live webinar." That's really cool.

David Abrams: He doesn't like to promote brands off the bat for anything. So we worked together for a solid year supporting his events and being there for him before he even started to promote Demio at all. So it was definitely one of those just more natural, organic relationships, but one of the things that would only happen from an event. I think a lot of relationships that we built over the have come from events. Obviously that's now a little bit weird in the COVID world, but I still think that there's a lot to be said from just doing basic networking and getting relationships built.

David Bain: Have you attempted to mimic that face to face relationship building online now that you can't really do face to face events?

David Abrams: Yeah. I think again, that's a lot of what the podcast does. Whenever you kind of have these personal conversations, ways to break through time constraints, have mutual value adds that can can be done is very helpful. Also utilizing networks that you already have and asking people that you know already to possibly reach out to connect you with other people has always been a big win for us as well.

David Bain: Okay, great. Well, let's swing back into your use of marketing technology and ask you as your business grows, what's an example of a process that you currently do manually that you may wish to automate using marketing technology in the future?

David Abrams: Yeah. I think we still do a lot of manual attribution on product usage. Like our ICP is kind of tracking that whole process of those ICPs. I don't think we have a really good analytical system for those things. I think ultimately we want to get in Mixpanel. We've had to move from Heap to . And in this process, Mixpanel has kind of a tougher setup that we haven't really finished. I think that has been one thing that we really want to move into. Get more automated so we can get better and faster customer insights, ICP insights for our ideal customer profile.

David Abrams: Like what are they doing? What do we need to do? What channels are they coming from actively? I think that's just one of the areas that we really need to improve on.

David Bain: So you mentioned attribution there. Do you have an attribution model at the moment that attempts to focus more on first click or last click or anything in between?

David Abrams: No. Again, we were using Heap for a long time. Heap was an amazing software, but right now, a lot of what we're just using as Google Analytics. And just trying to look at UTM codes and then whatever we get from Intercom is just like JavaScript end points. So there's no like attribution in that.

David Bain: Okay. And a follow up question. What is something that you have in mind that would be a wonderful piece of marketing technology that perhaps doesn't even exist yet, but you would love to see created?

David Abrams: Well, I think it goes right onto what I was just saying. This may be already created. This may even be Segment. I really haven't gone too deep on it, but really just that marketing attribution. Being such a big pain point. It's like the first thing that comes to mind when you ask me this question. So much of this stuff either has a super high price point like Heap, or has like a very high technical setup. You have to spend so much time connecting everything. There's so much a pain in trying to understand your data, understanding the attribution of that data.

David Abrams: Where is your best channels, where your best customers, who's utilizing what. You can see these things in the different systems, but then you have to still sometimes manually put them together. And again, I realize Segment does a lot of this stuff, but it doesn't do like for me everything perfectly because if I'm sitting here with this pain point, then I just don't know enough about it.

David Abrams: But I think just being able to set KPIs and then have a data organization and the flows of those into like a single area so that we can just have like actionable outcomes would be just a game changer for us. At cross channel attribution being one of the hardest. Hey, someone comes to your blog and they do this and they do this, then they do this. Then they become a customer with a lifetime value of X, stuff like that. That'd be very helpful.

David Bain: Absolutely. In fact, I remember about six years ago or so I registered a domain name with the intention of starting some kind of attribution software that just took some data from Google Analytics and a couple of other sources and made it simple for marketers to simply look at referring traffic sources. And gain some kind of understanding of the financial value that they had on the end user. It should be fairly simple to look at a bit of software and just have one screen that says focus more on this particular referral source.

David Abrams: That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Yeah. Like just dumb it down as much as you can for me.

David Bain: Yeah, exactly. Maybe I should have focused on that, but that's difficult to do everything in this life. David we've had a great conversation. What would you say is the key takeaway for the listener from today's discussion?

David Abrams: Well, I would say definitely think about marketing attribution early. I think for us, we've done it so late in time that now we have like a massive data that we have to try to backlog through which is never fun. I also think look at your marketing stack as far as what are the values that you want to create in your business and how can you build that simply and then iterate on them. I think that's been one thing that's been great for us. It's just fast iterations, finding the things that we love, connecting them together. And then adding on top of that, adding on top of that. Because it's just impossible to go in and just do everything you want our onetime. So that may be the best takeaways.

David Bain: Great. Just focus on one or two things and don't be afraid to change. Just be able to pivot fairly quickly.

David Abrams: Yeah, absolutely. That's a great advice.

David Bain: Thank you so much for your time. Your tips today. What's the best way for the listener to find out more about you and what you do?

David Abrams: Yeah, probably on LinkedIn is the best. I've actually gone on a bit of a digital detox this year. I just can't handle everything on social media. Some I'm off a lot of the social media channels, but grab me on LinkedIn. It's David Abrams, or just head over to Demio. Again, grab us on live chat, say you will listen to this podcast, this episode, and I'll jump into Intercom and have a chat with you.

David Bain: Wonderful stuff. Thank you very much, David.

David Abrams: Thank you.

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