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Martech Stacked Episode 5: What is the best software to quickly add a revenue generating funnel to your website? With Gavin Bell.

Blog Post Author – David
25th June 2020

I am joined today by a man who helps brands scale through Facebook ads and marketing funnels. He's a popular marketing event speaker, a cracking podcaster, and his agency is a preferred Facebook marketing partner due to its spend of over £1 million in ads per year. Welcome to Martech Stacked, Gavin Bell.

Subscribe for free to listen to Martech Stacked on Apple or Android.

Here are the 3 top tools in Gavin’s current martech stack:

#1: ClickFunnels Marketing Funnels Made Easy

#2: ConvertKit Email Marketing for Online Creators

#3: Calendly Online Appointment Scheduling Software

Full transcript:

David Bain: I am joined today by a man who helps brands scale through Facebook ads and marketing funnels. He's a popular marketing event speaker, a cracking podcaster, and his agency is a preferred Facebook marketing partner due to its spend of over £1 million in ads per year. Welcome to Martech Stacked, Gavin Bell.

Gavin Bell: Thank you so much for having me here David. It's an absolute pleasure.

David Bain: Oh, pleasure to have you on Sir. Of course, you can find Gavin over at Gav, explain what your business does and how you use marketing technology to make it better.

Gavin Bell: Yeah. Absolutely. I guess there's two main areas to the business. We have on one side of things, which is where I started was we have the agency which you were talking about there in the intro where we work with brands across the world. We help them build, create and manage their Facebook ad campaigns and their funnels. We will work with brands to basically build them a lead generation system. That's one side.

Gavin Bell: The other side is we have an educational arm to the business, where, for the businesses that maybe don't want to hire an agency and outsource that, we teach them how to do it. Of course there's a huge amount of marketing technology that we use across both the agency and in the membership and the coaching that I do. Both from a using them perspective, but also both from a teaching people how to use them perspective as well.

Gavin Bell: Because when it comes to marketing, there's so much that you could do and there's so much to do that if we didn't have the technology and the tools that are there on the market for us right now, it would be an enormously time-consuming task, more so than it already is. I think the main way, or the main reason that I use some of these tools is to boost productivity and to get more effective results. There's a wide range of tools that we use and tools that we recommend and teach to other business owners as well.

David Bain: In general, are you finding that the number of different marketing technology providers that you use as a business is increasing, or perhaps even decreasing slightly over time as your business starts to mature?

Gavin Bell: I think it's probably evened out and leveled out a little bit in the sense that when you first start a business, you have to find that initial technology stack of, "Right. What's my email provider going to be?" Et cetera, et cetera. You build a stack. Then I think over time, you maybe add things on, you remove things, you change some of the tools that you're using to improve, or because you get to a point where there's tools out there with better options than previous ones that you'd created.

Gavin Bell: You know, I think I've been through three different email marketing softwares through the years, purely based on where I was as a business at each stage of using those different tools. I would say I've probably leveled out the number of tools I used. I'm always quite wary of bringing in too many because I think if you get too many and you start using too many, then you tend to not use them very well.

Gavin Bell: Also, if you have too little, then there are jobs that you're doing where you're maybe paying for somebody to do it where a tool could do it as well. It's about finding that balance. I think after finding that initial stack I've probably stayed pretty consistent with the number that I use.

David Bain: You must have parts of your business that you're, I guess, more satisfied with than other parts from a marketing technology perspective. We touched on the fact that marketing technology can make what you do much more efficient. Is there a part of your business such as maybe customer service to people who have signed up to use your services or maybe prospecting that is much more efficient and you're much happier with, from a marketing technology standpoint?

Gavin Bell: Yeah. I think one area that, going back years, I've never really had a strong grasp on until the last say six or 12 months really was our CRM system. From an agency perspective, it's vital that you have a system that allows you to see initial inquiries all the way into phone calls, proposals, customers. I, probably being when you first start the business, it's just you, everything's in your head, written down on notepads and things, didn't really see the need for a system like that.

Gavin Bell: Over the years, as we've started to grow and different opportunities come our way, it was crucial that I found a CRM system that worked for me. I'm not going to lie. I struggled for quite some time to find a tool that I liked and suited my needs. I was able to learn in the without having a huge amount of time trying to learn and it's not too over-complicated. It was only last six or 12 months when I brought on a new member of the team and they had the skill set and the CRM system that we then started to use it properly.

Gavin Bell: I think since starting to use it properly, it's been an absolute game changer because no longer are people inquiring on the website and I'm replying to them and they don't reply back, and that's it. The end of it, because now we track everyone that comes into the business. How much are they worth to the business? Have we sent them a proposal yet? We're looking every single week, can we move people forward? I mean, you look at that, you can just imagine how that improves conversion rate from lead to customer and how we can then keep customers on and continue to keep working with them.

Gavin Bell: A great example of that is somebody hired me to do a live training workshop last year. On the back of that there's a usual email that you might expect, which was, "That was so great. Thanks so much. We'd love to work with you again." Normally, that would just get forgotten about and nothing would ever happen. When you've got a CRM and a system in place, you can set up to say, "Well, remind me in a year to follow up with them and try get another one of these workshops again." I think the CRM side of the business is something that's improved massively recently and it's been a great journey.

David Bain: Absolutely. It's an essential element of professionalizing your business, really. It's quite interesting. The conversations that I have with people about marketing technology, CRM often comes up. Episode number one, Lukasz Zelezny focused in on PipeDrive and how that was so important to him. Episode number four, Phil Nottingham had HubSpot CRM within his selection. I'd be keen to hear if, I guess, your selection is one of them, something else, and if it indeed makes it into your top three.

David Bain: Let's focus in on your top three selections. Starting off with number three, what are your top three tools in your current martech stack and why?

Gavin Bell: Yeah. Number three for me is actually Calendly, which is perhaps not a marketing technology if we looked at what the tool does, but the way in which we use it as a business is massive. It just makes the process so much more efficient. I do a lot of direct response advertising to bring people into the business. One of the ways that we do that is we get somebody to watch a webinar and then offer them the chance to book in a call.

Gavin Bell: Now, Calendly just simplifies that whole process for us because no longer do we have to spend time and trying to find the right team then that lead is no longer interested. It's you watch the webinar, you click the button to book a call and you get instant access into my diary or one of the team's diaries to book in a call. That is a tool that for the price that you pay for Calendly is just it had to be in my top three, because the amount of time and energy that it saves us and the amount of money it makes us as a result is just amazing.

David Bain: Did you consider other schedule booking tools? Because I've used ScheduleOnce in the past. I've used Acuity Scheduling. I'm probably in the middle of considering other tools for a similar kind of service at the moment. I did look at Calendly and the only thing that put me off slightly about Calendly was that you can't use your own subdomain and point that towards Calendly, I believe, and have it look as if it's definitely just your own website that's operating on there. Are there any other tools that you actually considered?

Gavin Bell: I mean, I've had a look at ScheduleOnce before. I haven't had a look at Acuity, but I felt like Calendly for me just was the one that felt and looked the nicest. One of the things that we do to make it ... to touch on your point there, but the custom domain, is we just have a redirect on my website. If you go to like, it will take you directly to the Calendly 30-minute slot in my diary. It's super easy and super quick. It's just really easy to use. Whereas I felt that the other ones were slightly more clunky looking and feeling.

David Bain: Yeah. It takes longer to set up sometimes as well. Even though it's only maybe a couple of hours, it's that, "Oh, do I really want to spend a couple of hours doing this? Or do I want something that I can get up and running within five minutes?"

Gavin Bell: Yeah. Exactly.

David Bain: That's tool number three. What is your tool number two?

Gavin Bell: Tool number two is quite an interesting one for me actually, because we just made a massive change back to this tool. I spoke about email marketing software earlier and in that I've used three different tools over the years. I started off with MailChimp and then moved to ConvertKit when I wanted a little bit more automations. Then we recently ... Well about 12 months ago moved to ActiveCampaign because I wanted even more automations with the membership site that I had.

Gavin Bell: Only recently in the last seven days, we have moved back to ConvertKit. ConvertKit is my number two. The reason that I love ConvertKit ... Well, when I initially chose ConvertKit it was because it had really nice sequencing. It was easy to use more so than MailChimp. We then moved to ActiveCampaign because I launched a membership site and I really wanted some kind of advanced automation. Things such as if somebody hadn't logged into the site in 60 days, they got reminder emails to come back and log in.

Gavin Bell: These types of things, which ConvertKit I mean, maybe it does do, but didn't do intuitively, which ActiveCampaign does. We've pivoted the business a little bit and no longer have the need for all those advanced automations inside ActiveCampaign. I just found myself spending too much time trying to edit emails and the open rates weren't as great with ActiveCampaign. I kind of had a huff and just went back to ConvertKit last week and did the big migration over.

Gavin Bell: I'm delighted I did because some of the things I love about ConvertKit are the fact that it's very easy to do split tests if you're doing a broadcast. You can split test the headline and see which one works best and editing emails in an automation sequence is so straightforward and so quick and easy to do, whereas ActiveCampaign it's you have to go on, find it, click on, edit. It loads a new page, then you do it. It just takes a little bit longer. When I want it to do things quickly and easily, ConvertKit came out on top for me.

David Bain: That is interesting. I talked to Ian Anderson Gray and he had ActiveCampaign as one of his selections. ActiveCampaign are obviously a wonderful tool, especially as you've alluded to, if you use the more marketing automation type features within its arsenal. I'd like to maybe just talk a little bit about open rates, because that was an interesting point that you felt open rates weren't quite as good.

David Bain: Do you think that's because you built your audience up on ConvertKit and their email software providers were used to receiving emails from you from a certain server. It was simply the change as opposed to any negativity with ActiveCampaign's servers that, that was the issue there.

Gavin Bell: Yeah. I mean, if I'm totally honest, I have no idea why that difference was, but looking at all the emails we sent from ActiveCampaign, I think the open rates were really low. I think between 15 and 20%. When we have moved back to ConvertKit and before ActiveCampaign, we're sitting at 25 plus. I also find that the click-through rates on ConvertKit are slightly higher as well.

Gavin Bell: I don't have a scientific reason or a proper reasoning behind why, but I think if I look at my own email marketing software or email marketing consumer behavior, when I get an email that looks like it's written by somebody in the formatting of it, as opposed to a newsletter, I'm much more likely to click on it. ConvertKit's emails are very basic in their formatting. I don't know whether that has a part to play there.

David Bain: They're still HTML, but a very light touch HTML, or maybe just the footer has a couple of images in there but everything that you have in there is still trackable. Yeah. I mean, that's certainly a possibility. If you get something that looks like a newsletter, I guess there's an option within ActiveCampaign of altering that. It does, I think, emphasize the importance of selecting software that offers your business precisely what you require, but maybe nothing more. If you try and go for a convoluted piece of software, you end up spending too much time in it and not enjoying it quite so much.

Gavin Bell: Yeah. I think the enjoyment factor is a big part of it. When you're doing a lot of something, i.e. sending emails, and for us, when we've got memberships, different tiers of the memberships, a general newsletter that's going out, so multiple emails every week, you need to have a tool that is enjoyable, easy and, well, fun to use.

David Bain: Have you tried to bring in other forms of communication, like messages on social media platforms or even SMS, or do you still primarily focus on email and that's the most important form of communication for you?

Gavin Bell: Yeah. Email is still the most important and the main one. We did actually run a five-day challenge just a few weeks back. The main form of communication for that was Messenger, Facebook Messenger, which was really interesting because I mean, the five-day challenge was hosted in a Facebook Group so it made sense for us to use Messenger to give people updates about the five-day challenge. Whilst we were doing that, we were still combining that with email marketing efforts. People were getting the message in two different places.

Gavin Bell: Email is still the main place that we use and probably will be, but Messenger is one of those things where we use it on and off, depending on, do we have a specific campaign or a specific thing we need it for?

David Bain: I guess, ideally then you try and drive people from Messenger to email afterwards and then just communicate with them by email afterwards.

Gavin Bell: Yep. Absolutely. I'm a massive, massive advocate of trying to own all of your traffic. Getting people off of social media, off of Messenger and bring them onto your mailing list so you've got control of that asset.

David Bain: Okay. You selected Calendly as tool number three. With number two, it was ConvertKit. What is tool number one?

Gavin Bell: Two number one is actually another one that starts with C. I just realized all my tools start with C and it is ClickFunnels.

David Bain: Okay.

Gavin Bell: I think it's maybe a bit of a controversial one to some people because I feel it gets a lot of stick from some. ConvertKit ... Sorry, ClickFunnels for me has just been an absolute game changer in the success of all of our funnels and the direct response advertising that we do. The reason I love it is because we've got multiple funnels. People are watching webinars, coming in, downloading free guides, signing up to the five-day challenge, et cetera, that we did.

Gavin Bell: The reason I love ClickFunnels so much is because it's so quick and easy to create a good-looking page that converts well. For things such as when we're starting to sell courses or parts of courses, or if we have tripwire offers, ClickFunnels, we can create it within five minutes. One of our funnels is free guide thank you page that tries to sell a £9 course, you can then add what's called an order bump to the checkout page so immediately somebody ticks it, they get an add-on to their order. Then we've got upsell pages, downsell pages.

Gavin Bell: You can create that all within a couple of hours. If you get something like that right, breaking even, making profit, for me, to be able to make profit on something that you only took a couple hours to make is pretty incredible. I've used all the other tools out there, Leadpages, Unbounce, Instapage. They're all great tools, but for me, ClickFunnels just beats them in terms of ease of use, the ability to test different things very quickly, which is ultimately what you need to do in order to get results.

David Bain: You chose the three C's because you're in the ContentCal podcast, didn't you? That's all premeditated beforehand. ClickFunnels, I think that you're on WordPress as the main website. Does ClickFunnels integrate quite nicely with WordPress?

Gavin Bell: It's probably not as nicely as I would like it to. I mean, there is an old ClickFunnels plugin, which allows you to create nice URLs. You can have and it would send people to the funnel. That plugin hasn't been updated in over a year so I don't use it. What you have to do is essentially create a subdomain for your ClickFunnels domain. If I'm sending people anywhere, it will be, for example.

Gavin Bell: That's one area, and I don't know how that compares to the other tools if I'm being honest, but that's one area in which I wish there was something that could be improved upon there.

David Bain: You obviously like a lot about it. You mentioned Instapage, I think, and Leadpages. What ultimately drew you towards ClickFunnels instead of those other options?

Gavin Bell: For me, it's the ability to create more complex funnels as opposed to Leadpages. With ClickFunnels, like I say, you can create a free guide. You can have your order form on there with an order bump with upsells, downsells, et cetera. You can do that very quickly. Also, the split testing feature that ClickFunnels has is great, which means I can create a landing page for a free guide, let's see. I can create a split test, which means 50% of the traffic goes to one, 50% of the traffic goes to the other one.

Gavin Bell: ClickFunnels will tell you which ones perform best. You can do that for all of your different pages within a funnel, which means I can test different headlines, test a video versus an image and see which one is performing better for me and which one's not. The ability to do that, but do it quickly is ultimately what wins it for me, because like I said, I've already touched upon being able to action things and do things quickly is a marketer's dream because I just love testing things all day long. I want to be able to do them quickly and easily, and ClickFunnels allows me to do that.

David Bain: It's funny that the software that seems to be recommended by most people goes through certain, I guess, years of popularity. Leadpages used to be particularly popular five or six years ago or so. You don't hear about it quite so much nowadays. I mean I haven't used it for quite a while either. Let's get a feel for ... I'll tell you what, I was just going to ask you quickly, have you ever used Thrive Themes as well?

David Bain: Because Thrive Themes integrates quite nicely with WordPress as well, and you can create different landing pages using that. I do hear quite a few people talking about that. Have you happened to use that?

Gavin Bell: I think I remember trying to use that a couple of years ago and just feeling like it wasn't as easy as I wanted it to be. I can't remember specifically why or why I specifically chose to use it, but I'm pretty certain I tried using it for the reason of it being able to integrate really nicely with WordPress. I feel like it was clunky. It might've changed by now, but I feel like it was pretty clunky. Again, ClickFunnels was just easier for me.

David Bain: Easier for you. Let's get a feel for, or a better feel for where these different tools fit into your overarching content marketing strategy as well. Maybe where your call to actions primarily lie. Obviously Calendly is a tool that you use for bookings. I'd like to get a feel for if that's an important call to action that you use or that's further down the funnel. Can you share maybe a little bit about what your ongoing content marketing strategy is?

David Bain: Where do you tend to publish your content, in what kind of form, and how do you attempt to take people through your funnel from discovering your content?

Gavin Bell: Yeah. Absolutely. Our content strategy is mostly based on the questions that we are asked as a business, most often, and trying to answer them. Combined with keywords and a bit of an SEO play. Looking at what people are searching for and what's working. We might be slightly pivoting that a little bit, which I'll talk about. My content strategy essentially is taking these big chunky topics. Let's say something like a question that we're asked all the time, which is, what should my Facebook Ads budget be?

Gavin Bell: We take that and I will then film a video first and foremost. Most of my content is all video-based. I'll create a video that will be posted to YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, all of the different platforms. Then after the video is posted, I have a writer who then will take that video, turn it into a blog, and that will then find its way onto the website. Then what we will typically try and do is take that video and chop it up into little different segments and those will go out on the likes of Instagram and Twitter. That's the main strategy that I've been using this year.

Gavin Bell: At the end of last year, we also launched a podcast which was initially called The Funnely Enough Show, moved to The Funnel Academy Show, and exclusive, might be changing once again, as we pivot slightly again. The strategy behind that is more of, how can I bring people in that I want to speak to and want to get to know? As well as being able to produce content that is really useful for the people that want to be working with our coaching and our courses.

Gavin Bell: Now, the slight pivot that I spoke about there was, one of the things I've been doing recently that's working really well for the business, is actually going away from these big, chunky 10/15-minute videos and creating really short, fun, snappy, almost spoof-type videos. I'm finding that when I produce more of them, they're getting better reach and I'm getting more inquiries as a result of those. That's something that we're looking at doing whilst carrying on the podcast.

Gavin Bell: The strategy really for all of the content has really been to get people to take two actions, which is either to jump into our funnel and book a call essentially with the agency services, or, to join the membership that I had. Now, the membership is currently closed as we're going to move towards a course model, but that's always been the two call to actions we want people to take. Free trials and booking in a call. Obviously, if we take a look at the three tools that I spoke about there, ClickFunnels is essentially what we use to get people from consuming my content and into my funnel.

Gavin Bell: Getting people to watch a webinar or download a guide. Then on the back end of that, Calendly is what we use to try and get them to book in the phone call. Then on the back end of that, ConvertKit is what we use to continue to communicate with those people.

David Bain: Lots going on there. For the shorter videos that you mentioned there, that you get more engagement with, have you found that those videos tend to appeal with your target audience, or you found it difficult to actually measure the precise nature of the audience who are engaging with those videos? Yeah. Are you doing anything within that content to attempt to appeal to a certain type of person?

Gavin Bell: Yeah. Firstly yes. Absolutely. They're definitely appealing. I would say they're appealing more than the big chunkier topics. Now, it's slightly different when the topic that you're creating is maybe a bottom-of-funnel. Answering a very specific question that somebody has, that they might ask you in the sales process, such as, how much does it cost to work with you? For example. It's slightly different. You're never going to get virality with a video like that, but you're not aiming to get virality with a video like that.

Gavin Bell: The shorter videos are really, I guess, what I'm trying to do to get this top-of-funnel awareness, because the reality is, if you post a 15-minute video on Facebook around how much these Facebook ads costs, it's not going to go viral. People probably aren't going to share that and you're not going to get a huge amount of engagement despite the fact that might be a really valuable piece of content. What you have to do is play to the platforms on what people actually want to consume on the platforms, which is typically shorter, entertaining content.

Gavin Bell: We can produce that and get people aware of who you are. Then, one, they're more likely to take the call to actions that you want them to take. Two, they're more likely to go and then consume those longer pieces or more bottom-of-funnel pieces of content that you're creating as well.

David Bain: For these shorter videos, are you for a lot of them actually boosting them with a view to retargeting people with your longer-form content?

Gavin Bell: Yeah. Yeah. My philosophy when it comes to promoting content has always been promote what works organically. There's a common issue that I see a lot of business owners making, which is they'll try and boost everything or they'll boost the content that's not working so it tries to get up to the content that's doing well. Whereas what we should do is purely focused spending our money on what's working.

Gavin Bell: If you produced a video two years ago that is still relevant and performs better than all of the videos that you've done in the last two years, spend money promoting that one. Don't spend money promoting the ones that no longer work. Yeah. We will spend money on the ones that do well.

David Bain: What would be an example of metrics that prove that a video is working and that you should spend money boosting it?

Gavin Bell: Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, there, I tend to just look at the views and the engagement and make a ... Well, I can tell based on the normal videos that I produce, that we maybe get 30 likes. This video got 50 likes, so that says to me it's probably doing pretty well. That's a non-scientific guide to deciding what we promote. Then if we take Facebook specifically, you can go further into the metrics and see what's actually happening.

Gavin Bell: For example, you can look at Facebook, what's the average watch time of that video? Now, the average watch time for a video on Facebook is only six seconds. If we're seeing that the average watch time of the video is maybe 25 seconds, let's say, then I'm going, "Well, people are actually paying attention to this video." If I know this video is something that overcomes an objection that my customers always face, even if it's not got the best engagement, but the average watch time is really high, I know people are watching it, then I might look at promoting that one as well.

Gavin Bell: It's about looking at the public numbers of likes, comments, engagements, shares, but also sometimes looking at the comments that not everyone can see, the average watch time, and making a decision based on that.

David Bain: Great. Okay. I'm going to take a step back into marketing technology again in one second, but I'm going to probe just a little bit deeper into Facebook and just ask you. For a video that you've published that you've paid to boost, is there an optimum length of time that you would do that for? I.e. after one month, two months. Is that video going to get stale with your target audience and should you think of publishing a new one? Or if a video continues to get views after six months, a year, should you just keep on paying to boost that one?

Gavin Bell: Yeah. I always create every campaign that I create on Facebook to run forever. I'm creating it like it's going to run forever. Now, that doesn't mean I'm going to run it forever, but I'm creating it like it is. I've never set a time limit and say, "We want to turn it off after 30 days," because the reality is, if it's working, then we want to keep doing it. There's metrics that you can look at for this.

Gavin Bell: The main one being the frequency score inside Facebook, which tells you how many times your audience has seen that ad or has seen that video. When that gets to around three, people have seen it three times, that's when you're going, "Right. We should probably change up now."

David Bain: Brilliant tips. As your business grows, what's an example of a process that you currently do manually that you may wish to automate using marketing technology in the future?

Gavin Bell: I had a big think about this question and I feel like there probably is a tool out there that does this, but the fact that I haven't found one or haven't used one that has made me feel good about using it, is why I'm going to include it, which is there are numbers in my business which I always want to track. These are things that everybody likes to track such as email open rates, email click-through rates, funnel conversion rates, landing page conversion rates.

Gavin Bell: I wish there was a really nice, easy tool that integrated with all these different tools that I use and just created a nice dashboard that I didn't have to manually go and update, or I didn't have a team member that had to go and manually update it. It just showed me in one screen, right. Your open rates this week were 30%. That is an increase in 5%. On the same screen, your podcast listeners are up 10%. That's an increase from 5% last week.

Gavin Bell: Just something that was a really nice reporting dashboard that gave you context, as well as the numbers that did it automatically. You didn't have to do it manually. You could then go, "Right. Why did this number change last week and what can we do about it?"

David Bain: I think a lot of people that I talk to are looking for that one piece of software to bring fairly quick intelligence about everything that's going on in their business. It's a challenge because perhaps tools exist out there that allow you to bring in sources of different data, but it's really making something meaningful out of that. I guess it would require a little bit of artificial intelligence to actually know precisely which areas are going to be more important to focus on because those metrics that are most important would change, I guess, from week to week as well.

David Bain: Perhaps it's a tool that is in development at the moment, but may not exist for a couple of years' time, but let's hope it does.

Gavin Bell: I hope so.

David Bain: Yeah. Exactly. I mean, people have suggested tools like, people use Tableau to pull data together, use Google Data Studio as well. I think they all rely on you knowing what data that you require. I think you're talking about something a bit more just get the tool to do the work for me to decide what's the most important thing.

Gavin Bell: Pretty much. Yeah.

David Bain: That possibly leads up into this next question, which is, what is something that you have in mind that would be a wonderful piece of marketing technology that perhaps doesn't even exist yet, but you would love to see created?

Gavin Bell: Yeah. I mean, I think it would be that, if I'm honest. I think when it comes to marketing technology, there are only really a few things a tool should do, which is save the person using them time and allow the person that's using them to get better results by using that tool. If there was a tool out there that allowed me to save time by not having to do it myself or manually and get somebody to create a report for me and then gave me context to those different things so we could go, "Right. The podcast is down this week, what changed with our podcasting schedule?" For example.

Gavin Bell: Like, "What did we do differently?" Which would then give you actionable goals to go and implement, an actionable task to go and implement as a result would be a lifesaver really.

David Bain: Absolutely. The challenge isn't getting the data. It's asking all those whys to drill down into the real reason why something actually happened. Gavin, you've offered a lot of great advice and information as part of our discussion. You're quite comfortable with me taking detours into Facebook and coming back into the core of martech discussion. What would you say is the key takeaway for the listener from today's discussion?

Gavin Bell: I think the key thing, which we've kind of touched upon, is when it comes to marketing really the only thing that you have to do in order to have success with marketing is test everything that you do. We've touched upon numbers. We've touched upon funnels. We've touched upon ads and Facebook and content. We've touched on lots of different things. The reality is for all these things, if you can test them all and have a system that allows you to test these things, then you cannot fail because if you're producing content and a video doesn't work, ask yourself why.

Gavin Bell: Stop doing things that don't work. When you find videos that do work, do more of those different things. The same comes with a funnel. What is working with your funnel? What are people engaging with? Do more of that. Stop doing the things that don't work. For me, marketing is just a big testing game and the more you test and the more you iterate and the more that you stop doing the things that don't work, do the things that do work, the more chance of getting success you'll have.

David Bain: Lovely. Okay. Well, I think it's been another great conversation as part of the series. It's another conversation that I've wanted to keep on diving deeper into each answer that you give. I know we can't just keep on talking forever, but I feel that I could go deeper and deeper. Hopefully for the listener, I've selected the right levels to go into before getting back on track and going for the next question that I'd highlighted with you beforehand. Gavin, thank you so much for your time and your tips today. What's the best way for our listener to find out more about you and what you do?

Gavin Bell: Yeah. The best way to have a chat, see what I do is just head over to my website. It's, and it's the same on social media as well, No, it's not .com. It's Mr. Gavin Bell everywhere on social. On my website it's

David Bain: Superb stuff. It was all very simple to remember, but you still tripped up on them. No. It's easy for the listener to remember. That's very good, indeed. Thanks again.

Gavin Bell: Thanks for having me.

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